Is a Little Bit Better than Nada?

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Only after like 20 minutes of this crap, I'm like, fine, here are my keys. So go to my car, get my four iron, a Pro V1, my glove and my shoes. Double or nothing, I'll do it again. And he could not run to my car fast enough. And so he brings it back and I walk all the way back down the fairway. I go drop the ball, same spot. And it was a blind shot so I couldn't see it. I hit it and it was kind of like Sergio. And I come running out, but I couldn't get out fast enough to see it land. So I just turned my head and listened. And I'll have to edit this out. But the first, the only thing that I heard about six seconds after impact was son of a. All right, welcome back to or welcome to. I always say welcome back. Welcome to the best golf podcast ever. I'm Garrett with Tony and Mike. Tony, a teacher of teachers in the golfing universe. Michael, a. A trainer of trainers, I guess in the. On the TPI side. Good to see you brothers. Always excited and always enjoy. Happy Friday. Cheers. Tony, you are looking particularly slick today. I don't know if it's. Did you change your hair or something? You're just looking. You look inside. [00:01:06] Speaker B: I gave myself a haircut and I had put on a new black shirt. I just took a shower, so. [00:01:11] Speaker A: Okay. Bathing does help. I mean, I've been told the appearance. Yeah, well, it's been busy couple of weeks. So, Tony, you had the four club Challenge. I had the Solly's Cup. I've got a little experiment that I did today that went incredibly sideways. I'm really excited to share that. And also I'm not sure if I. I don't know if I'm gonna let the cat out of the bag and tell like the whole story or if I want to leave some suspicion out there until I get the video out for it. But got that going on, Tony. I forgot until I was sitting there putting down my notes for today. Me and you've played since the last time we recorded. [00:01:51] Speaker C: Were you playing together or against each other? [00:01:53] Speaker A: That wasn't against each other, right? [00:01:55] Speaker B: That's right. Yeah. That was against each other. Yeah. Well, first let's. First let's celebrate the wins. Right? So we won. We did win the Cellies 2 man 5 week championship. Then we. We won pretty handily too. When they. [00:02:12] Speaker A: We didn't go undefeated though, that we did. We went all five. [00:02:16] Speaker B: Yeah, we knew that. We knew week five was not going to be a good one. It was Beth Page. And we had. We had a few simulator woes. I don't know how much it actually affected anything or if we were just garbage that day, but it was like reading club path and club speed and angle of attack for my clubs. But I didn't have any stickers, any markers on the club. So I don't know how it would have been reading that something was going off. But I still think we just played terrible. [00:02:46] Speaker A: Well, it's like I told you at one point in. In the round, I don't think the sim. The sim is not acting right, but it was not. I don't want to say that, to say that the sim is the reason we played bad. It was just like. I'm almost positive I. I hit a snap hook and it told me that I hit a block fade. Neither one were going to be good, right. It was a bad shot regardless. But it just seemed like it was. [00:03:09] Speaker B: It. [00:03:09] Speaker A: It was straight and it was. I don't know, maybe it was just us. I've never. [00:03:14] Speaker B: But no, but remember there was that one where I, like, chipped a ball and it launched and landed, you know, into the screen softly. And then it showed up on the sim as it, like, raced across the green as, like a. A ground ball. We're like, what the heck is going on? [00:03:29] Speaker A: Tony's gotten so frustrated with the sim not picking up his putter correctly that he's finally decided if it's more than 15ft, he's chipping it. [00:03:36] Speaker B: So he. Chip it off the ground. [00:03:38] Speaker A: He decides to chip it. And apparently the sim didn't like that either because he's. He's hit a chip shot, a nice soft little chip shot, and it's treated it like a blade, like across the green like a little. Little worm burner. [00:03:49] Speaker B: So I think someone went in there. Someone went in there and tried to sabotage us. They, they. They glitched it out and introduced some bugs or something like that so that we would have some. We would get everybody else a chance, maybe. I don't know. [00:04:01] Speaker A: Well, and in fairness, I think I might have a suspicion of who that was. I think my boy. I think it was just install. So that's the guy that I was talking so much smack about over the summer and saying that he had, like, sandbagged. And I don't know how he came back. It turns out I didn't know the guy. Just he was the beat me at club championship and I didn't stick around long enough to get his name, so I didn't remember him. And Then. So that's the guy that beat me. So we played four of our five matches against each other and had just an awesome time. I had a great time playing with him, probably because I won three out of the four. [00:04:30] Speaker C: But even when we beat me, good time. [00:04:34] Speaker A: But even when he beat me on Sunday, had a real good time. So I kind of. And I did admit to him, I said, look, I. I gotta say, I. I did kind of badmouth you on our podcast. I didn't edit out most of what I bad mouthed, but I had to. I had to eat my words on that one because he's a cool dude. [00:04:48] Speaker B: Some crow. [00:04:49] Speaker A: Yeah, I had a. I had a real good time playing with him. [00:04:51] Speaker B: But no. [00:04:52] Speaker A: So it was interesting. I played my, you know, normal 17 practice rounds so that I was fully. Tony and I's match was at that Beth Page. But then there was like a special edition Beth Page that they had for the Sully's Cup. So I get to the first T there and it's like, this isn't what I remember. The rough wasn't anywhere close to as bad as I thought it was going to be, but we played it from 6700 instead of 62, so it was kind of a wash in a. In a way. But that rough still, though, even the. Even in that edition of it was bad. Yeah, the virtual rough was. Was pretty rough. [00:05:28] Speaker C: That's. [00:05:28] Speaker A: Sorry, I didn't mean to say it, that I didn't mean to have that pun, but it was pretty brutal. Yeah. At Eagle Ridge, Tony and I played. [00:05:35] Speaker B: It'll be. [00:05:37] Speaker A: It was this. Not this past Monday, but the Monday before I got the card here. I started off double, double bogey, double double bogey. So I'm eight over through five. [00:05:51] Speaker B: It was not good. [00:05:53] Speaker A: It was not. I almost went ahead and paid you after the fifth. Like, let's just. I don't want to have to let this linger. Let's just call this a day. But I did battle back. I birdied six, pard 789, 10, bogey, 11, 12, pard 13, 14, 15, 16. [00:06:13] Speaker C: Dang. [00:06:14] Speaker A: Now 17. I think there's got to be a mental lesson in there somewhere. Tony from 17. [00:06:19] Speaker B: So I think you shouldn't have gone for the green. That was the stupidest thing. I was like, why is he doing this? [00:06:25] Speaker A: Respectfully disagree, sir. Because. But I really was. This is. What do I know? [00:06:30] Speaker B: I don't know anything. [00:06:32] Speaker C: Set it up for me, though. [00:06:33] Speaker B: Set. [00:06:34] Speaker C: Set up the. The hole for me. [00:06:35] Speaker A: All right, so it's a 550 yard slightly downhill par 5. Dang. I believe. Did we go into that whole dead square? I think we did well. [00:06:45] Speaker B: Yes. Ours. Ours was a tail of two nines. I think I was even more on the front nine. I've got this thing squarely in the bag. Yeah. [00:06:51] Speaker A: And then I had back to back triples. I believe. 11 and 12. Was it back to back triples? [00:06:56] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it was a triple and a triple and a double. [00:06:59] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:00] Speaker B: So there are some mental. Mental not focus there. [00:07:04] Speaker A: Yeah, that was. That was a. A little bit of a middle midget moment, I guess. [00:07:08] Speaker B: But we almost lost the ball on 12, one yard off the green. [00:07:12] Speaker A: That was. The rough was incredibly. It's not even. It was so tall. It was just that Bermuda rough this time of year. It just sucks a ball down. If the rough's more than about 2 inches tall. It sucks the ball all the way to the bottom and then somehow covers it up and you can't find it. And when you hit a great shot in there, dead center of the green and we go up there and we can't find it. I mean, we didn't have to cover a 10 by 10 square to look for this ball. I mean, we knew where it was. We just couldn't find it. And he finally finds it and he. I think you chipped it out on the green. But then you chipped it. You maybe didn't get it on the green. I think you got it to like the fringe and then you've hit a putt or a bump and run that rolled off the other side and then chipped it back across all the way down. [00:07:54] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It was just terrible. [00:07:56] Speaker A: It was a John Daly at Pinehurst in 99. Top thing. I mean, it was just. [00:07:59] Speaker B: Yeah. 10 cup thing. Yeah. Anyway, so, yeah, going into 17, we're must be tied or something. I don't know. [00:08:07] Speaker A: I think we're right around tide. So I hit mine slightly. Right. Tony's just a little bit further. Right. But we're both in okay shape. And he's. He makes the comment, you know, probably gonna be blocked out by some trees. And I get down there and I'm like, I don't know what Tony's talking about. I see the. I see the green. I mean, yeah, there are trees in the way, but I see the green and I don't know why I would not go for this. All it is is a 235 yard, 20 yard cut to iron. I mean, this is not a hard to. [00:08:38] Speaker B: To a green that is wider than it Is deep with bunkers in the back of it. The whole thing sloped back to front. And if you are marginally short, it's a death false front all the way down into a hazard. [00:08:52] Speaker A: But see, all I hear is that it's wider than it is deep, which means as long as I hit the number right, I've got a lot of width to work with. It doesn't have to be straight. It just needs to be generally the right distance. And you say false front, and I say there's some really deep rough between the green and the creek. [00:09:12] Speaker B: So long story short, as soon as he says. As soon as he says he's going to hit this two iron, I knew the match was mine. I was like, it's over. [00:09:21] Speaker A: Iron. He walks over to me, I've got the two iron out. And he looks over and he says, you going for it? And I can't remember my reaction. I said, well, yeah. And it was because I'm like, how would you question it? I mean, it's just a. I can hit a two iron 230 or so, and this is only like 215 with a cut. I think I got this. But here's my justification. And I'm gonna die on this hill. I pulled the shot off. I didn't hit it great, but I hit a good enough shot that it landed five yards short of the green with enough left to right movement that it should have kicked away from the false front. And I still think it's like seven feet off the green somewhere. Just buried up in some rough I couldn't find. [00:10:04] Speaker B: The false front is also short. It goes. It gets longer as you go farther right. So I just think I hit. [00:10:12] Speaker A: I think it's in the rough. I don't think it was as. I think I. I think I hit a good shot. I just, you know, we can agree to disagree. You won the match. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Thank you. Hole 17. [00:10:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Spent 17 minutes looking for that golf ball. Never found it. [00:10:27] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:10:27] Speaker A: And then finally took. Took bogan. I did have to do my little walk off move because I hit actually a pretty good recovery shot to get it to about eight feet. And I. I had to, like, regroup a minute because I think you made par. And I had to remind myself, okay, I've just got to make this putt and I'm, you know, I can still have the hole, but then I missed the putt. You didn't hit a good t ball on 18. But then I hit a. I had a good T Ball in 18, but I ended up kind of In a. An awkward live on the. In the rough, and I've almost hit the clubhouse, I think, with my second shot and ended up making double on 18, so. So we're dead square. I think in the, in our two 18 hole matches, I took one, you took one, and I think we're. We're dead even, so. Oh, it was fun, but I wasn't too happy with the ending. I was pretty, pretty irritated with it. [00:11:16] Speaker C: But is that pretty typical of how you approach it, though? I mean, we're going full on Nicholson. Typically when you play well, I think. [00:11:25] Speaker A: Nicholson's a little smarter than I am, but I mean, generally. Yeah, that's. But we'll get to that. I think we might have. I might have made an accidental breakthrough on that one this afternoon or this morning. So we might get to that in a little bit. But before we go there, though, I want to hear about the four club challenge, Tony, because you shoot one over, you win by three or four shots. You won pretty big, but sounds like you got a lot of really cool lessons out of that, too. [00:11:49] Speaker B: So. [00:11:50] Speaker A: Tell us about that one. [00:11:51] Speaker B: Yeah, so last year I played in the four club challenge, and I did not take a putter, which was the stupidest thing I could have ever done in my life. Learn my lesson there. But basically I took, I looked at the course, and we played it from, I think, 6,300 yards. And I looked at all the par fours and the par threes, and I said, what if. If I like my 7 one a lot and I can hit it like 250 max, all the way down to 200, pretty easy. Garrett seen me hit this thing. It's just a phenomenal club. And I was like, okay, if I'm. [00:12:20] Speaker A: Averaging true utility of utilities, he uses this thing everything from 160 to 240. I've never seen somebody with so much range on this club. [00:12:28] Speaker B: Yeah. So I, you know, I'm like, okay, If I've got 240 into every or off the tee, what's the average distance I'm going to have for an approach shot? Like, what's my range going to be? It's going to be 130 to 100 yards on par fours. Looked at all the par threes, figured out what's the distance to the front of each green on all of them? What club could I use that would get me on at least the front edge of the green? And then I said, I need a wedge that can go to at least 115 all the way down to into the Green and then a putter. So I took seven, wood, eight iron and wedge. And I learned so much through this term. At first I was very proud of myself because probably through, like I would think I was even through the front nine and probably through about the 14th or the 15th hole. I figured I'm in really good shape here because to be hovering around even far with a four club tournament from this distance, it's pretty tough to do, right? So I was like, okay, I'm pretty good. I only missed two greens all day, but I was like, process, process. Do not look at the leaderboard because we had golf genius. So I could have looked at the leaderboard to see where I was, but I was like, nope, I'm not going to look. I'm just going to keep it and put in my scores and keep doing my pre shot routine and keep picking smart targets. And all the way on the 18th green, I had a chip and a putt to finish out. That was the one of the greens I missed. And as I was walking up to the green, I was like, let me check the scoreboard real quick. Let me check the leaderboard. But I didn't, I was like, no, don't do it. You've come this far, you've stuck to the process. Don't do it. So I didn't finished up. As soon as I rolled my putt in, I looked and sure enough, I had one big. And I was, it was pretty pumped because it's like the first, I think solo tournament I've won, I've won some team stuff, obviously. Garrett. [00:14:01] Speaker C: Awesome. [00:14:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, so. But it was good because there was few moments of nerves, but for the most part, you know, I just again, process, process, process. And I was telling Garrett today that it was pretty cool too, because you realize how much you can do with just four flips. Like if, if you've got. Even if the, let's say the flag is in the back, but you're really comfortable with your nine iron. Even if you're nine iron only gets you to the front third of the green, well then it's just a two part par, but at least you're on the green. Not trying to hit a club you're uncomfortable with or yardage you don't like. And then you plug it in the bunker because you're not committed to the shot or whatever. Because when you only have those four clubs, you have to commit to every single number, every single swing. You have to be completely dedicated to what it is that you're trying to accomplish with that club, like, there's no guesswork. It's just got to be, you know, committed. And so that was the thing I was going to say I recommend our listeners to do is to just take four clubs and see what you could shoot from the front on the score and tee box or whatever it is, and you might find which clubs and which yardages you actually really feel comfortable with, and then you might could build a strategy around that. But yeah, it was, it was a really fun opportunity and a really fun tournament to try something new. And like I said, I told you I needed something where I could get out of my head and start playing fun golf again. And I was really excited about that tournament because that's exactly what that was. Because you go with no expectations. You don't know what you're going to shoot because you only got four clubs. You're like, let me just try my best and go through the process and see what I can accomplish. And it was a lot of fun. A lot of fun. [00:15:27] Speaker C: Well, first of all, congratulations. I think just knowing what you've been battling the last, you know, month or so, I think this last month has been a little tough for you. And you said it's been hard to concentrate in your rounds, and kudos to you for, for putting it together. And something you said about not wanting to check the scores. So I'm curious. So a lot of my clients, they'll play like in a foursome or they'll play in these, these little club groups on, you know, a Thursday group, you know, would you rather know the score going into the last three holes? Just so you know, okay, how should I play these last three holes? Or do you think it's better for you? Hey, I need to. Need to stick with my process. And if I win, I win. Because, like, what Garrett is, is saying, you know, he's going for it, you know, on that 17th hole because he knows you guys are tied. But, you know, knowing the score, I'm like you, I would rather not know the score because then that gets. I get in my head, pick a sport, you know, whatever. If it's bowling or golf, whatever, I'd rather stay my process. But I'm curious your take, your guys's take on that. [00:16:41] Speaker B: Yeah. So I would say, because golf is a sport where you cannot influence the outcome of someone else, I would say a lot of people would be better not know the score, just going through the process, making the smart decision. Because, like, like I said, Even on my 18th hole, I had a chip and a putt. For par, nothing changes whether I'm winning by one or I'm losing by one. I still have to try to get this ball in the hole as. As few strokes as possible. Right. That's it. No, I can't go knock the other guy's putt out of the way if he's got a putt for par. And you know what I mean, it's not basketball. [00:17:11] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:17:12] Speaker B: So I don't know. I think there's different philosophies on that. But I think if. If you're trying to do something to match someone else's score and you push too hard, that's when double and triple comes into play. Right. Like, regardless of what Garrett was going to do on 17 when we played, if he had hit the green, I still was going to play the hole the same way I played it. Because I know for me what my best strategy is. To make birdie there or to make part worse. I know how I play that bowl and I know how I do it. Right. So the fact that he, you know, went for the green, even if he had hit the green and had, you know, it's still not a guaranteed two putt from that green because that green is super slopey and super tough. Where that pin location was, I mean, they had it right there on the edge right of that. That ridge. So there's no guarantee even two putts he could three putt par. You know what I mean? Or so it didn't really change anything for me, and I don't think it should. I think what we're kind of preaching oftentimes, people, is just go through your process, play your game, do your thing, and let the chips fall where they may. [00:18:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's a little different too, in tournament play versus heads up matches. So, like, when you and I were playing, that was a heads up match. The Solace cup were heads up matches. You kind of have to pay attention to the score in that situation to an extent. But at the same time, I still find there was a round at Soly's a while back, just a little practice round or whatever where I finished the round and I saw the score and I had to go back and add it up. And I was like, that's not what I shot. I'm almost positive that's not what I shot. And it was off by like two or three shots in my mind. And. But it was right once I sat down and I was like, wait a minute. Yeah, I did birdie that par three. Yeah, I did make that one putt I forgot that putt. And when I added it up, I had actually shot three shots better than I thought I did. And there are a lot of times when I'm practicing, it's harder for me on the golf course. I can actually get by with doing this at Soly's because it keeps score for you. On the golf course, I have to write a score down at the end of the round. [00:19:02] Speaker B: Right. [00:19:03] Speaker A: Or at the end of the hole. I've got to, you know, actually go through the process of writing it down. What is it you learn in school? Like, you retain some small percentage of things, you hear some larger percentage of things you write down. Like, when I write something down, it's harder for me to block that out. But when I'm at Soly's, at least I can. There have been rounds that I get in a little bit of a zone, and I look up and I'm 6 under, and I'm like, oh, I didn't realize I was quite there. And that's a great spot to be in. I've not figured out how to do that on the golf course, though, because you have to write your score down. Because that's part. Especially in tournaments. [00:19:31] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:32] Speaker A: You have to know what you shot, so you have to deal as you go along. [00:19:35] Speaker B: Well, what I was going to say is you talked about getting in the zone, and I'm going to find that video where it's a Tiger woods documentary type interview type thing. And he said the exact same thing. Said there would be stretches of six to seven holes where I would just literally black out. I was so in the zone. I'm just going through the process and playing. He's like. And then I'd snap out of it, and I'm four or five on it. Right. So he's like. I mean, so I hear what you're saying. Yes. You got to write the score down. Everything. But think about, like, even if you're doing match play, okay, you're still supposed to try your best on every shot. You're not, like, giving up, you know, you're not. You're not saying, ooh, I'm gonna try really hard on this one, and somehow magically hit the ball to two feet, you know? Like, there's still so much variability in the process. There's still so much variability and how much or how little control we actually have over the golf ball. Right. I mean, I. I play with people all the time, and I might accidentally pull a shot slightly and I hit it to three feet, and they're like, oh, that was a really aggressive shot. I was like, man, I was aimed 15 yards right at that flag. I wasn't aimed at that flag, you know, so, like, I mean, it's just, it's one of those things where you got to stay calm, you got to stay in the process and let the stuff happen. Right. Pushing too hard is not going to be the best strategy. It's, again, it's not like, I don't know, there's something different about competitive sport where it's one on where it's, it's team based and you can play defense. I think it's just a different mindset, I think. Right. Because you can directly influence what someone else is doing. Then you can tighten up on D, you can put more pressure, run a different offense, run a different defense, whatever. And golf, it's just you in the course, you know, it's just. I think so in some ways. I do think it's different. Now. There are things you can do with head games. Obviously. Tiger was pretty good at that, you know, head games. And a lot of golfers are really good at getting into the golfer's heads, but then that gets into gamesmanship and sport ethics and stuff as well. [00:21:21] Speaker A: So, yeah, a lot of what you were just talking about, there were lessons that I learned or had reinforced the. During the Solace Cup. So shout out to Soly. Seriously, they did a great, great job with the Solace Cup. It was a lot of fun. A lot. I think everybody that played in it probably had more fun than they expected to. And I had a blast. And I, I was, I texted you guys, I got there and started, you know, I got loosened up a little bit on Friday. Friday was four ball matches, so I had a teammate and it was just best ball. And I get ready to tee off and there were a lot more people there than I expected. Usually in tournaments and stuff, you kind of got your own private bay and it's just your foursome there. And there might be somebody that walks by and watches for a minute or two, but not you. But there were like 10 people standing around our bay watching these matches. And I mean, it's not exactly Augusta on Sunday, but that's a bigger gal. So I tee off and, you know, we, we have, you know, go a hole or so and I get to the second hole and I'm like, man, I'm like legit nervous. Like, I did not expect to be nervous for the Sully's cup, but I really was. And I texted you guys, I was like, I'm I'm seriously nervous, and I was probably nervous for, you know, at least first. I think I was nervous probably the whole round. I think I had to, like, the fourth or fifth hole, and I was like, okay, I'm nervous as crap, but I'm also one under. So, like, don't fight it. Just, you know, it's. It's uncomfortable to be nervous, but at the same time, that's also, like, if you get in, y' all may know more about this than I do, but that's also your brain kind of like letting you know. [00:22:54] Speaker B: We're. We're. [00:22:55] Speaker A: This is a serious situation, and we need to be on alert or whatever. There's like some type of a, like, you know, caveman response there where you're like, you're. It's. It's a good. It's not a bad thing to be nervous. So I started. They settled in. As the day went on, I didn't play great. I played kind of boring, but I shot a good number and we won the match. Then Saturday was alternate shot. I had never played alternate shot, but, man, there's some. A lot of cool lessons learned there. First of all, we were two down before I could even blink. I mean, I hadn't even finished my coffee. We're too down. And I was the reason I hadn't hit a good shot in five holes, because I'm playing with somebody who's not as good of a golfer, and I was trying to do too much. If I'm 160, I'm trying to hit it inside the gimme circle, right, Instead of just trying to hit a good golf shot. And I had to just kind of. About the sixth or seventh hole, I kind of had to say, just quit. Stop pressing. Just hit as good a shot as you can. And if it. Because we've talked about this before. When you play the great rounds, you aim for the general vicinity of the green you want to hit it in. And sometimes it happens to get in the gimme circle. When you try to hit it in the gimme circle, you're probably not going to hit it in the gimme circle. You know what I mean? You've got to just kind of relax a little bit and loosen up. So I did that, and we came back and won that match. The second match, we won eight and seven, which is about as bad as you can beat somebody in match play. And. But we had a great little system. My opponent teed off when their better player was teeing off, and then I was teeing off when their lesser player was staying off. So my opponent was, or my, my partner was really good at just getting it in the fairway and that was leaving me like 2:30 in. But that was okay because I could at least get there from 2:30 where my, when you flip flop the rolls, their guy was leaving their better player 250 out in the deep rough and he was having to chip out. So we, we played really well on that one and then won the third match also on Saturday. So I was undefeated going into Sunday. And I played Justin, who, you know, I really wanted to shut him out. I mean, I wanted to beat him four in a row and he was determined he wasn't going to. But on Sunday I started pressing again because Justin's a good player. I mean, props to him. He's a, he's a good player who can get hot in a hurry. So I think we started off, I think I, I think I was up on him. Maybe I was two up through five or six. Neither of us are playing great, but I'd made a couple of putts. But I'm just sitting there thinking, like at any given time he can string together six straight birdies. So I need to like, aim for the gimme circle on every single hole. And these pins were tucked, I mean, they were tucked tight. And I'm going for every single one of them, hitting shots that I can't, I can't hit. I can't 1 out of 10 times, I may actually get it in the circle, you know what I mean? I should have been taking middle of green, whatever, and just fell to pieces on the back nine. He beat me one up, so. Learned a lot about the, all the stuff that you just said there, Tony. I mean, that was kind of my weekend in a nutshell was. Don't press. Being nervous is okay. When we beat them in the 8 and 7 match though, I really found a, a routine and a rhythm where I didn't care what the score was, I didn't care what the match was. I went through my routine every single time. I don't care if it was. I literally. We had a, you know, they made double bogey and I had a, you know, a 12 foot birdie putt. All I gotta do is get it in the circle. I still went through my routine. All I had to do was tap it two feet into the circle. I still went through the routine. And then you just look up and it's like, oh man, we're six up through nine. If we can win two more, this thing's over, you know, But I wasn't, we weren't, I wasn't thinking that way. I was just go through the routine, hit a shot, go back, do it again, do it again, do it again. And then you look back at the end of the day and it's like, oh, wow, that was pretty easy. So. [00:26:46] Speaker B: Well, and it goes back to some of the other things, right? Like I've been doing a lot of learning on a variety of mental health topics and things of that nature. And you know, at the end of the day, we can only control the few minor things we can control in life. You can't control what other people think or say about you. You can't control what other people do, how they perform form. You know, you just, there's so many, so few things that you can actually do in control in your day to day life and golf is a perfect example of that. The only thing you can control is your process, your targets, the effort you give. But look, you could go out and on your best day, you shoot 72, you played a great round and then so could the other person. They shot 71. There's nothing you can do about, literally nothing you can do about it. It's just we all go and we do our best and we see where we land at the end of the day. That's just kind of the beautiful thing about it and the frustrating thing about it too, obviously. Right. But that's the game we choose to play. It's no different than bowling, right? Every, every time a professional bowler goes up there, they're trying to shoot 300 or roll 300, that's it. And sometimes they do and sometimes they don't. And sometimes their 289 is good enough and the others is better. It's just, you can't affect them. Or, you know, Usain Bolt and Tyson Gay, they're both trying to run a sub 10, 100 meter dash and they both do their best and some guys are just faster sometimes and that's just all there is to it. [00:28:05] Speaker A: But Tony, how many times do we. Do we, you know, when I'm down seven shots through four holes or whatever it was I was, you know, I was to you the other day, in my mind I'm thinking, all right, well, one of two things going to happen. Either Tony's going to go through a slump somewhere or I'm going to lose. That's it. There's. I'm not making up seven shots on you unless you help me. And you. And you didn't for a Long time. And then 11 and 12 happened and then I did. But at the same time, if I had gone to the six T thinking, okay, I'm at a birdie six and I'm a birdie seven, they're both kind of gettable holes. I'll parade, then I'll get a birdie nine and then I'm going to claw my way back into the. I would have shot freaking 97 if I had tried to go that route. Because when you try to. And I don't care if you're in your gangster or even just playing by yourself, when you have those bad starts and you're like, I'm hell bent, I'm going to break 80 today or I'm going to break 90 or whatever your number is, and then you start off and you're 10 over through six or whatever, you can kind of make a decision at that point. You can think that you're going to come back from this, but I got news for you. If you're going to come back from this, then you're going to have to play the equivalent of about a 65 from that point in. Right. If you were capable of that, you would have done that by now, you know. [00:29:19] Speaker B: Well, and the other thing. [00:29:20] Speaker A: Best you can do. [00:29:22] Speaker B: Yeah, the other thing about that too is I, I've played a lot of golf with a lot of different skill level golfers and it doesn't seem to matter whether they're a 90 shooter or a 70 shooter. Everybody has that peak, what do we call it, that peak stimulation range or that peak care level, right, where there's just enough care that you go through your process and you do your routine and you pick targets. You're still playing the game, but you're not worried, you're not anxious about the score. You're just doing the process. And then what happens a lot of times is you'll see people like, I've played in so many of these tournaments now where someone has a bad start, two or three holes, three or four over, and then they're just like effort, you know, whatever. I don't even care anymore. And then they go par, par, par, par, birdie, par, par, bogey. And it's just like, it's like they reach this, this, this stimulus level where it's like I'm in my peak flow state now because the pressure is off. I, I feel like I'm out of the tournament or whatever, you know what I mean? And now their brain is free to focus on what needs to happen and they can actually Perform. [00:30:24] Speaker A: Tony, have you ever come across a golfer, and I'm not sure. And honestly, Mike, you would have maybe something to say on this, too, but have you ever come across an athlete who plays better when they're, like, so nervous they can barely breathe? I mean, I wasn't to that level by any means, but I do play better. And we talked about this before I told the story about my U.S. junior amateur qualifier when I was, like, 16 or 17. I remember being so. I felt like I was holding a rattlesnake when I teed off on number one. I mean, it was. I was terrified. I. I seriously at the top of my backswing, thought I was going to miss the ball. That's how uncomfortable I was. And I strike two in a row and made birdie in the first hole. And then I calmed down, and I played like crap from there in. And even this weekend, Friday, when. When I realized I was nervous, I mean, y', all, I hadn't been nervous with a golf club in my hands probably in, well, probably seven or eight years. Club championship when I was playing a few years ago, probably made me a little nervous. But, I mean, it's been a while since I've really been nervous. And I was nervous as crap. And I look up after, you know, a couple of hole or five, six holes, I was one or two under, whatever, and not. And honestly could have. I mean, I had a lot of balls that were just right outside the gimme circle and just lipped out some putts, things like that. But Sunday, there was all this hype, and we were the last match, and we were the. The anchor match or whatever, and there was all this hype around it. And by the time when I left to go to church, we had come back and my team had tied the other team for the overall. By the time I got out of church, we were almost eliminated. And by the time I got there to tee off, we had been eliminated. So I've got all this, you know, energy, you know, built up for this match that now means nothing. And then I just went out there, and I still went through my process, but I just didn't play very good. And I don't know if it would have mattered if it would have. If it would have changed the outcome or not, but I just feel like there's been a lot of times, and it sucks because I don't like feeling that way. It doesn't. It's not comfortable to have your heart beating out of your chest 125 beats a minute and feel like A. A golf club that you've swung, what, 200, 000 times in your life. You don't know if you can make contact with it, But I do seem to play better that way. So, number one, have you ever come across that. I'm sure there are people like that. And when. If you have, what the hell do you do about it? How can I make myself that scared and then not play bad or whatever? Well, you know, I don't know if. [00:32:44] Speaker C: You can answer it in the moment, but, like, why. Why were you so. So when you say nervous, this is another term for, like, anxiety. Why I'm having anxiety right now. So why are you anxious? Are you anxious that you're going to make a fool of yourself, embarrassing yourself? It's kind of recognizing what is making you anxious in the moment and then being, like, okay with it. And, you know, that term embrace it, just kind of, I think, identifying it different for everybody. [00:33:14] Speaker A: I think for me it's, you know, it was twofold. Number one, okay, if I hit this shot, if I. If I hit a bad shot, it counts. I don't get to rake another one over and try again. I have to go play the consequence of this shot, if it's a bad shot, that's part of it. And then the other part is, you know, you got people standing around watching you, and you don't want to choke. You know, you don't want to especially. Most of the people around there know I'm a pretty decent player. So the last thing I want to do is top one or do something to stain my amazing reputation at Soly's or whatever, you know? [00:33:46] Speaker B: Right. [00:33:47] Speaker A: Like, there's a little bit of that, if I'm being honest. And it's like, you know, you just. You want to perform well when people are watching, and you especially want to perform well when people are watching. And it matters if you don't. And it just. I don't know, it just. All of a sudden, this thing that I'm pretty comfortable doing feels like it's impossible to. [00:34:07] Speaker B: To do. [00:34:07] Speaker A: But when I. But I. I. At the same time, I play better when I feel that way. [00:34:13] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:13] Speaker C: So, I mean, I'm. I'll be, you know, honest. I'm somebody that has dealt with anxiety my whole life, and something that. It's kind of runs in the family, and it's something that has affected me and performance when I was in college playing baseball, something that I still deal with and manage. So. But I love it. I love, I think, the things that we most struggle with it becomes like our greatest form of teaching, you know, for me, because I feel like I was kind of a mental midget when I played, and it was something that I could speak directly to as a coach when I was on the baseball side. But I think just acknowledging it and identifying it and sometimes it's different, Man, I gotta. I got a buddy that I train. He is deathly afraid of driving on bridges. Like, that doesn't bother me. What bothers, what makes me anxious. It. [00:35:06] Speaker B: You. [00:35:06] Speaker C: If I said what it was, you'd be like, that's silly. But I've got. You know, everybody gets anxious about different things. Right. But it's just recognizing it, identifying it, and being cool with it and being able to. If it's something that reoccurs and just being comfortable with it. But, yeah, sometimes it pops up in the worst possible time. [00:35:30] Speaker B: Right? [00:35:31] Speaker C: Yeah. I don't know, Tony, if you got any. Any thoughts on it, but I. I think just being. I love that we're. We're talking about it because it's something that we all fits everybody, right? When I got guys that play really well in tournament play, like, they play better, and then I got guys that play worse. So, yeah, I'd love to, Tony, if you got any thoughts on it, on that performance stuff with what you. You talk to your students about. [00:35:58] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, there's so much to go into there. Right. And we need to get a sports psychologist on the show one of these days. But I think there's a few key points. I think it does go back to that level of stimulation that is most beneficial for people. And it varies. Right. I'm. You know, it all comes back to the ego, I think, in some way, shape or form. Like, I love to show off. Like, you give me a driver and I'll say, watch, I can hit this ball off my knees. And I do that. And I never miss, you know, like, it's just perfect because I love to show. Like, and showing is a part of teaching. So I love to be able to demonstrate and do stuff like that. But I'm also just a big ham, you know, And I love the validation when you do something cool and people think it's awesome. I think it's fun. Right. That's just part of my DNA. But at the same time, I think controlling breathing is obviously very important. It's been something I've been working on personally and working on with my own kids, because we've all got our own stuff that we're dealing with, you know, with everything that's going on. And I was listening to this podcast the other day. This, it might have been a TED Talk or something. I think it was a TED Talk, but he was talking about a breathing technique that like samurai and the Marines use. And it's called the four, seven, eight breathing technique. Or basically you breathe in deeply for four seconds, hold for seven, and then let out for eight. And then you just keep doing that until your body regulates and slows everything way down. And what do we notice with a lot of top tier athletes, I was just talking about this in class the other day. A basketball player, big breath before they shoot, before they go into their routine, right? Or you see a golfer on the tee box at the Ryder cup or whatever and you see the whoop they show the heart rate and everything. Big breath, settle, breathe, right? It's, it's all about finding the ability to the, the, the brain goes in that fight or flight or freeze response, right? Whenever we're under pressure situations, perform and focus on what you need to do. But I think, I do think with Garrett, right, maybe that's, that's his threshold, that's his stimulus. Optimal zone is when he does feel a little bit of nerves because it's telling him, focus up, buddy, and hit a, hit a solid shot. Because same for me, same for me performing, right? When I got people watching me and I'm like, I just claimed I could do something crazy. Well, I gotta, I gotta buckle up and show them how I can do it, right? So I think for. But it's different for everybody. It is different for everybody. And you've got to figure out what ways work best for you. And this is where some people, right, they learn that, you know, playing, competing is not for me. I'm better off on the sideline or I'm better off helping others do it right, or playing tournament golf is not for me. But you don't know unless you try it. You don't know unless you put yourself in enough scenarios. And a one off is not the end all be all. You got to do it at least 10 times to see if it's just a one time nervous experience or if it's something that's an actual issue. And again, our listeners play a variety of different styles of golf. Probably some are competitive trying to win their club championship, some are just recreational, just trying to have fun. So there's nothing wrong with saying, hey, competitive tournament golf is not for me. It's not for everybody, right? But if you say you want to do that, well, then yeah, you gotta have strategies and abilities and things to perform without being debilitated by anxiety. But, yeah, you gotta get to. Like you're saying, Mike, you gotta get to the root cause of what's really the cause of the anxiety. It might not be that you're afraid you're gonna top the ball because you've hit a ball perfectly thousands of times. It might be the fear of putting your name on the leaderboard and finishing last like that, just for your ego, that won't. That won't sit well. And so I used to tell people all the time at the. At the beginning of. Of a golf round or whatever, they're going to go play in a tournament. I said, have you accepted the possibility that you could finish dead last? And they're like, no, I don't accept that. I'm like, well, if you haven't accepted that you're not ready, you probably shouldn't go play. Because as soon as you put your name on the thing, you got to be willing to understand that that is a possibility. And if you mentally cannot accept that, then you probably shouldn't put your name in the hat. You know what I mean? [00:39:54] Speaker A: So, yeah, to some extent, I think I. I can kind of get what you're saying with the showing off things. I think I always said that. I think I said on a couple of shows ago that always played better with my dad, and I did. I always played really good with my dad. And I think there's something like. And this is not, like, I'm not trying to go like, all deep psychological whatever on this. Like, me and my dad are. Have a great relationship. Love him to death. He's awesome. But there's still something about little boys or, you know, young men that want to impress their dads. You know, it's just something that we're kind of naturally kind of born. So knowing that I was pretty good at golf and when he and I would play together, I would just always find a little bit extra gear that I didn't have when I was out there by myself or out there with my friends or whatever. And there was just something about it. I just always liked seeing, you know, making proud or showing off for him or whatever you want to call it. When I was in high school, I was actually talking to my son about this the other day, that when I was in high school, if a. If a girl I liked came and watched me play golf, I always played a couple shots better. If I was trying to show off, you know, there's just something about it. I was Also nervous if they were there. Right. But I also played a little better, and so I think I kind of get some of that. [00:41:02] Speaker B: Well, can I. Can I just make a. Can I make one point there and ask for clarification? The thing about playing with your dad and trying to impress him, I think that's different in a sense that you knew his love was not conditional upon you playing. [00:41:15] Speaker A: Well, that's true. Yeah, it was. [00:41:17] Speaker B: Right. So it was an opportunity to show off and an opportunity to impress without the burden and the baggage of, yeah, if I don't perform well. And same thing happened with Robert Ori. Right? Y' all remember Robert, or Big shot Bob they called him. He hit game winners for multiple teams in his NBA career. One of the best quotes I ever heard from him was they were like, how did you pull the trigger and make all these shots? He was like, man, I had money in the bank and a family at home that loved me. Whether I made or missed the shot, I'm good. You know, like, it's just a game. So there is a. Like, that's the optimal stimulus, right? That's the optimal pressure level is he's just playing free, he's having fun, you know. [00:41:54] Speaker A: Well, and the other thing, though, that I'll. I'll say to it from the weekend was I. This is probably the first time I can ever remember finding. I don't know if this is the right way of saying it, but almost like a little bit of a comfort, security blanket in my routine, like my pre shot routine. I know I've read about that, heard about that and tried to do that, but I finally, sometime like early Saturday, probably at the end of the first match, really got into my routine because I think before I've been. I told you, I've been playing around with different things and I started to realize, okay, I don't need. I had too many steps in it. For me, it was just take a deep breath, hike my shirt up, go through my. My little, you know, seven. I even timed it at 1.7 seconds is how long it took me to go from hiking the shirt to being in the box. And I just became methodical about it as the day went on. And the more I did that, the more I started to find comfort in the fact that I don't. In the past, I think what I've tried to do is when I would feel those nerves, I would try to put a little bit extra control on the club and say, okay, I've got to hit a great shot. So let's make sure we control this club more. I think in this, what I did was kind of said, okay, I'm going to try to focus more on the control of the process. And then once I've gone through it, I felt this little bit of a subtle piece right before I take the club back that says, hey, I've done everything that I know to do. I did my shirt and I walked off of several shots when I hadn't done it. That's something I've never done. But even on a putt that wasn't meaningful, necessarily, or a shot that wasn't meaningful, if I hadn't gone through the routine or if I'd gotten in the box and didn't feel right or miscalculated something or whatever, I stepped away, started it all back over. And then when I got to that. That trigger moment, it was okay. I've done everything that I can do, and I just felt more comfortable. And I probably alternate shot. You don't get to see, like, what you would have shot on your own ball. But I'll tell you, I played some really good golf in that, especially that middle match. But really, all day Saturday is probably some of the best golf I can play. And there was a little bit of that showing off. I mean, we had a huge lead, and I'm 240 out on the 11th hole, and they're like, in the deep rough. I mean, we were. We were pretty good shape to go ahead and lock it up. But I'm sitting there thinking, if I had a good three wood, my partner's going to chip it up probably inside the circle, and we're going to win the hole. But if I hit a great three wood, we're going to end this right now, and I'm going to do that. So then I've hit like a 240 yard at about 6ft and got to end the match. But that was really. Was going through my head is like, I don't want my partner closing this out. I've got the club in my hand. I want it closed out right now, and I hit a great shot. So when you are able to do that, it's a cool feeling, but I'm not. Like I said, I was. I was nervous. I just. Probably the first time I can remember ever playing well while I was nervous and sustaining it, Like, I've done that for a hole or two, but then I always, like, okay, shake. You know, I would almost fight the nerves away, and then that would. I think my optimal level might be just a touch up I think I like it a little bit more. [00:44:49] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:44:50] Speaker A: Not so much that I'm like debilitated, but just enough that I'm just a. [00:44:53] Speaker B: Little bit more certain. Well, I think there's two really beautiful things you said in there. One, you said you controlled the process, you controlled that you can do the process and then you let it go, right? Then you let whatever's going to happen happen. And I think that's so important, right? Because again, when people start to get the yip sometimes or the mental yips is, it's like they don't, they're not committed to letting go of outcome, right? They're not committed to. It's like, oh no, I can still fix this or I can still, you know, do something. And they've, they've not let it go. Same thing too. And I don't know, I, look, I have to look at the academic literature on this within the sports psychology field, but I don't know if anyone's ever studied enjoyment and fun as a correlate to academic performance, right? So, like say, for example, we watched some really amazing basketball teams the last few years with, you know, Steph Curry and Klay Thompson, the Splash brothers, man, when they were playing their best, they just have, they look like they had so much fun together, right? And the whole team chemistry, everyone's having fun. Fun. I mean, if I think when artists get into creative space, they're enjoying it, they're having fun. Even when something is challenging, if you're enjoying it and having fun with it, you have the ability to perform well because there's not the negative mental baggage and stigma. I mean, I've, I've coached, you know, 10 year olds up to high schoolers in different sports, not just golf. And when the mental anxiety and pressure of mom and dad on the sidelines screaming at them or coach yelling at him, if you miss this, you're off the team, right? Like, who can perform in that? Who, who can do a good job, who can play the best their ability at that. [00:46:22] Speaker C: Yeah, they can, but they're not having fun, you know, And I, and some people just don't care. Like they would rather win. Like winning is fun for them. And I was one of those guys, like, I need to be loose, I need to have fun. Because even if I win, if I'm not having fun, like, it just doesn't do it for me. But I, I think to piggyback Tony. I love what you were saying, Garrett, because Tony has talked so much about process and we're talking a Little bit about anxiety and how you dealt with it was you went back to your process. And I love that. Like, I think you in performance, you have to embrace the anxiety. And what I. When I think embrace that means, like, you know, it's gonna come. Like, instead of being like, oh, my gosh, I hope I don't get nervous today. It's like, wreck. Just say, hey, I'm gonna get nervous and I'm going to get anxious and I'm gonna pinch a little bit. And that may. And that may happen on a whole. But I love if you guys can. If you have a routine, and I didn't have one when I was playing in college or whatever, I didn't have a routine. So I just. I just trying to, like, push away the anxiety for three hours enough that I could perform. And anyway, to. I. You said something earlier, Garrett, that I have to ask you. So, you know, you're talking about, like, that little bit of that, like, Mickelson, that maverick in you. I hear that in you. And you're like, well, I could just punch it in the gimme circle, but, like, I want to go for it. And so I guess my question is, do you get more satisf. Like, are you as satisfied when you just lay up and you just, you know, win? Are you, like, do you get more enjoyment out of going for it? Is that, like, we're talking about endorphins and we're talking about brain. And like I said, I see that in you. Like, I would rather go for it in this and have the endorphin rush in my head. Or can you put that aside? Can you mentally, like, I know I should lay up here and I know I might win that hole or that, but you know what? Damn it, I really want this endorphin rush that I'm getting right now. I'm gonna go, hell with it. I'm gonna go for it. Is there a question? I know that I feel like there's a question. [00:48:59] Speaker A: No, it was a question. No, I think the question was, am I. Am I okay laying up and winning, or do I have to go? [00:49:09] Speaker C: Yes. Do you get the enjoyment? Is it much? Are you going to enjoy it as much as you like? But if I go for it, I'm going to win with some flair and people are going to talk about it, but I could also not win. [00:49:26] Speaker B: Okay, let's just predict his answer. Let's predict his answer here based off of his favorite movie and his favorite movie character. [00:49:35] Speaker A: I'm gonna go ahead and I'll Give you a very simple answer. I actually don't know because I have never tried to lay up. I mean, I've never. I've seriously done it. Tony, What. How long do you think it took me to decide to hit that 2 iron on 17? [00:49:51] Speaker B: You had 2 iron before we even. [00:49:52] Speaker A: Pulled up to the ball, probably because I didn't know if it was going to be a two iron or a three wood. But I was. [00:49:59] Speaker B: Regardless. You were hitting one of us. [00:50:00] Speaker A: There was never when. When we pulled up, the only question that I had was, whose ball was on the left and who's on the right? Because if mine was on the right, then it was. Where yours ended up being was. You were blocked out to the point I probably couldn't have tried that one. But when I got up there, I'm just like. It never even occurred to me to lay up. It. It literally never crossed my mind until you walked over and said, you got two iron. And I was like, yeah. And you're like. And I'm like, the. What do you mean, Bold move. It's the only move. I was not even aware that there was another option. [00:50:34] Speaker B: And, well, that was not me. That was not me trying to get in your head. That was me as a friend looking at the train wreck that was coming. And I was like. [00:50:42] Speaker A: And my response, I want to win. [00:50:43] Speaker B: But I don't want to win like this. [00:50:45] Speaker A: But honestly, man, like. And I'm. I mean, this is genuine moment here when if you had not said anything, it would have been a little bit different once you said bold move or whatever it was. I can't remember now exactly what the phrase was, but that, like, you know about that endorphin rush. It was like, ooh, that's gonna make it even sweeter when I stick this to six feet. If you hadn't said anything, it would. [00:51:05] Speaker C: Have just been challenge accepted. [00:51:07] Speaker A: But now that you. That's right. [00:51:08] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:51:09] Speaker A: Like, that was my natural. [00:51:10] Speaker B: If there was. [00:51:11] Speaker A: And there hadn't been any thought that I was going to lay up, but if there had have been, that would have been all I needed to say. Oh, yeah. I wasn't sure I was 60, 40, maybe, but now I'm definitely going. But like, yeah, it's like the story I told where the guy kept ribbing me in high school that I couldn't hit that shot again, like, after he did it long enough, I'm just like. And honestly, like, that. That story in high school. Did I tell that on the podcast or did I just tell you that? [00:51:34] Speaker B: Tony, I think you told me that at Eagle Ridge. [00:51:37] Speaker A: So when I was in high school, Mike, there was a. There was a guy when I was a senior. He was a sophomore. He was a pretty good player, but he was. He was about as cocky as I am. And he was. He liked to talk smack. Well, one day we had a match or whatever, and we were playing. [00:51:53] Speaker B: We were. [00:51:54] Speaker A: We were betting with each other. We're too old to get in trouble for it now, but anyway, I ended up hitting a 200 yard punch cut, four iron on 18 to like 6ft or 8ft. And he's just like, you lucky. Blah, blah, blah, blah. Well, we finished up, and we're sitting around waiting for the rest of the team to finish. Pratt, it was just practice, and we're waiting on the other teams to the rest of team to finish, and he's sitting there on the hill. Dude just keeps telling me how lucky I was. He's like, man, you were so lucky you couldn't do that again. I said, well, that's fine. I don't have to do it again. I did it when it mattered. And he just keeps on, keeps on, keeps on. Finally, after, like 20 minutes of this crap, I'm like, fine, here are my keys. I'd already put my stuff up. I said, go to my car, get my four iron, a Pro V1, my glove and my shoes, and I'll do it again if it'll shut you up. And he. He could not. And I think I did, like, a double or nothing bet. I think I won, like 20 bucks off of him. I was like, I'll double or nothing. I'll. I'll do it again. And he could not run to my car fast enough. And so he brings it back, and I walk all the way back down the fairway. I go drop the ball, same spot. And it was a blind shot so I couldn't see it, and I hit it. And it was kind of like Sergio in 99, where he comes running out of the woods to see it. I come running out, but I couldn't get out fast enough to see it land. So I just turned my head and listened. And I'll have to edit this out. But the first. The only thing that I heard about six seconds after impact was, son of a. And I said, ah, I guess I hit it close, you know, but it was the. Cool. But that's probably my favorite golf moment ever, because. But it was like, yeah, challenge accepted. I'm. You know, and there have been. Here's the thing about it, just like Tin cup I only remember the four times that I pulled it off. I have no recollection whatsoever of the ones that I'm, you know, all of the 90 ones. That's good. En route to that. Is it, though? Well, I think a lot of times. [00:53:49] Speaker B: Yeah. We need to define goals here. Right. So, again, different people have different golf goals. If your goal is to go out and hit the most creative, like, unique one in a million shots, have fun doing that. But if your goal is to minimize triple bogeys and quadruple bogeys and break a hundred, you know, there's other thing, other strategies that might be more beneficial to you. I don't. Well, I think at the end of the day. [00:54:13] Speaker A: So, Tony, I think you might know the. The topic that has not quite been brought up yet. So maybe. I don't know if you were trying to team me up for that yet, but I think. And out of that vein, Mike, do you have something you want to say before I bring up the. My. My Augusta story? [00:54:30] Speaker B: Oh, that one. [00:54:32] Speaker C: I'm. I'm just thinking of that song by Neil Young. It's better to. What is it better to burn out than fade away? I think you just. You want to be remembered and be talked about. [00:54:45] Speaker B: Crash and burn. [00:54:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. [00:54:49] Speaker C: Well, it's better to be remembered than forgotten. [00:54:52] Speaker B: But what are you remembered for? That's the question. [00:54:54] Speaker A: That's a good question. So today, so we've been doing. I was texting you guys last night, we've got the YouTube channel. That's a great time to plug the YouTube channel, by the way. If you're listening, go check us out on YouTube at the best golf podcast ever. And I've been really pleased so far for the. For the little bit that we put out there. We've got some good, good stuff and some, you know, decent amount of watch time and views and all that kind of stuff, but decided that from what I can notice from the analytics, it seems like the audience seems to be more interested in having their questions answered than just listening to us BS about our. Our golf games. So I decided to take my practice time at Soly's and try to turn it into some video time. And I was like, you know what? There was a comment on a clip we released from the last show. Corey talked about how I hit driver off every hole, and somebody made some comment about, you know, well, that depends on if there's out of bounds and hazards and all this stuff. And I was like, you know what? I got an idea. I can prove it. I'm Going to prove that it's better to hit driver off the. Off of every hole. So I set up a little challenge, went to Sully's today, and I played 36 holes from Augusta national or Georgia national, whatever it's called on there from the tip 7,500 yards. And I stacked. [00:56:05] Speaker B: Not Augusta National. [00:56:07] Speaker A: It's definitely not Augusta National. It just looks an awful lot like it. And I did stack the odds heavily in my favor by playing a 7, 500 yard golf course. But I said, I'm going to play 18 holes with no fairway, woods or driver. I'm going to take two iron and lower and play 18 holes, and then I'm going to play 18 with my driver in three wood just to show how much better you score when you hit driver. And I played the first round because I had nothing more than a two iron. I really couldn't be aggressive. The furthest I could hit it was the two iron. So I had to play more like shot selection and strategy and all that kind of stuff. But then when I put the driver and the three wood back in, boy, it was on. I was going for everything. Shot 76 with the two iron and below 77 with the driver. And that's at Augusta, which, if there's ever been a course that you need as much length as possible to be able to score, I would think it's probably Augusta. But I beat myself by one shot when I took the driver and the three wood out of the bag. So now I kind of feel like the. The sky is red, winter is hot, summer is cold, my entire universe is flipped inside out. But I think I have to kind of face this reality that maybe it's just a theory, but maybe I would play better if I didn't hit driver off every hole and go for every par five if I was inside 280, just throwing it out there for the group. [00:57:32] Speaker B: So several points of emphasis with this right From a coaching strategy standpoint, strokes gained decade, whatever you want to, whatever your scoring system is. If you come to me and say, hey, coach, I score better when I don't have a driver or three wood and my max distance is 230 off the tee versus when I can hit driver, whatever, I would say, well, then you need a new driver that fits your swing better, or you need to practice your driver and figure out a driver swing that keeps the ball in play. Because giving up 60 yards on every hole that you can theoretically hit driver on again, the closer you are the green, in theory, the easier it is to Score better. Right. It's just statistically much more likely to hit a green from 100 yards than you are from 200 yards or whatever, you know, 160. So that. That would be the first red flag to me would be. Then you just need to work on your driver. We need to figure out your driver, set up your swing, your mechanics, your. Your club setup, whatever. So that's. That's just that, right? Obviously. But I definitely think there are some points to be gleaned from there. Now, this is one of the things I was going to talk about that I didn't get to tell you about earlier on a phone call. When people say they're more accurate with their two iron versus their driver, it doesn't mean they're more skilled with that club. But if you just look at a basic triangle, right? Our shot dispersion is a cone, okay. A ball that goes all the way out here to the cone versus one that goes to here, you could have the exact same margin of error with club based to path relationship with impact, but because it just goes off on a farther line, it has more time to go wider. So there is a fine line of demarcation there of distinction. Technically, yes, you might be more accurate with the two iron than the driver, but not because it's magically you're more skilled. It just. They go farther. They go farther offline, right? That's just part of how, how the math works. But again, you know, and you have to look at the strokes gained, too. I do think it's 40 or 50 yards different. You have to be farther back in the rough or farther back in the Fairway before that, 40 yards is made up if you're in like the first cut of rough or something. Now, Grant, it's not the rough we've been playing lately, right? But just if you're on a traditional golf course, that 60 yards is a wash. And then when you are in the fairway, 60 yards further up, you're gaining even more because you're in the fairway. And you can put it closer from the fairway than you would from the rough. Right? So that's, that's the basic overview of how the math works there. But a way to look at it for the listeners or people doing strategy on their own decision making might be what's the farthest you can hit a ball on this hole without taking any extra risk? Right. If it's a wide open hole, there's no out of bounds. It's just hazards. Fine smack driver. But if there's out of bounds. Right. Okay. Well, can you hedge your bets farther on the opposite side to still justify hitting driver and not bring in any other risk? Right, but every hole is going to be different. But nine times out of 10, we want the shortest distance into a hole we possibly can have for our next shot. That's just how the math of it works. [01:00:39] Speaker A: One of the things that helped a lot when we were playing at Eagle Ridge is that. [01:00:43] Speaker B: Sorry. [01:00:44] Speaker A: Well, two things. First of all, one thing that I forgot to mention is that. Oh, yeah, here's Mike back. I want to make sure Mike hears this now. You're good. One. One thing that I've. One thing that I forgot to mention about my round at Georgia national was that I felt like I absolutely played like crap when I shot 76. I felt like I hit the driver fantastic when I shot 77. And I think that kind of speaks a little bit to what you were saying there, Tony. But another thing that you told me, Tony, that at Eagle Ridge last week, that I thought it was just incredibly helpful and part of the reason I think that I rallied back and played better was what you said to me about shifting your target. Take number 16 at Eagle Ridge is a great example of that. I always. It's a Eagle. It's a. It's 450 yards straight downhill. And if I bomb it, you know, I usually take it as out of bounds on the right. And it's pretty tight on the right, too. And there's a cart path right by it. So what I've always done is kind of take it at the right edge of the fairway and then hit a big high draw. [01:01:50] Speaker B: But. [01:01:50] Speaker A: And there's about as much room to miss lift. All you've got left is 17 fairway. So you can literally hit it 100 yards left and still find it, still play it, still have a shot, but I still take it down the right edge of the fairway and try to hit a big draw. And then the other day when Tony and I were playing, Tony was talking to me about just shifting your. Your target. So instead of just aiming right and trying to draw it, I actually aimed down the center and tried to hit the same draw so that it would ideally end up basically left edge of the fairway. It was a good thing I did because I ended up getting blocked out and I hit about a 10 yard cut instead. If I take that down the right edge of the fairway, it's out of bounds, but because I aimed it down the middle of the fairway, it was playable Barely, but it was playable. So just shifting. Then I did the Same Thing on 1717 the ideal, like the fast lane. What I've always heard is the left hand side, but you can miss it right about as far as you want to. So I shifted my aim point just a little bit further right and ended up just a little bit right. And still playable. I thought that was just a really. Instead of just thinking about, okay, there's water on the right of a green, say I'm 150 out and the pins on the right hand side. I'm going to aim at the right hand side and hit a draw. And if I hit it straight, I'll hit it right at the flag. And if I draw it a little bit, I'll be 15ft. Okay, well, yeah, but if you block it four feet, you're in the water. So yeah, there is that side of the shot dispersion too. So why not aim a little left of the flag and hit that same draw 25ft left of the flag. And I've never thought of it that way. Like, I've never, I've never necessarily changed my aim point in terms of where I want this ball to, to end up. I just change my shot pattern and say, okay, if I'm guarding against, if I don't want to go out of bounds, right, I'm going to basically aim just inside the out of bounds and hit a draw. Or if I don't want to go out of bounds left, then I'm going to aim way right and try not to draw it, basically. But I've never really changed my aim point. [01:03:46] Speaker B: Yeah. And people don't realize there's a difference between aiming a shot and aligning shot. Like your alignment is your body lines and where you're, you know, pointed relative to a target. Some people are drawers. They aim a little bit right of their aim of their intended target. Some people are faders, they aim a little left of their intended target. But it's. Where are you intending to hit the ball? So if like right, if this, this little circle here is my dispersion with an iron or a driver and you know, my face is the fairway and there's out of bounds over here, my new target needs to be over here. Like that's. And that's like people say, oh, how do I not hit it? [01:04:24] Speaker A: I want to interrupt to say this because this is the distinction that I forget. That means that if I hit a great shot, that is where my ball is going to go. Okay. Because when I aim center, the Green. And it goes into the green. I'm pissed off that it didn't draw enough to get close to the hole. Right. And I'm thinking, well, I need to aim closer. No, that means that's where you want your ball to settle when it stops moving is in that spot. [01:04:47] Speaker B: Why do you think Tiger Woods. His quote is, I play very aggressive to the spots. To the spots. I'm trying to hit it. Or why do you think you'll see a player like Becky Matsuyama hit a shot and the. And then he goes like this. And the announcer's like, I don't know what he's all pissed off about. That was all over the flag from the start. You know, that's because that he wasn't trying to hit it there. Right. And he's frustrated that his target was 10 yards right of the flag and he happened to pull it. He didn't care. I mean, he's. It's worked out. But, yeah, he was disappointed he didn't execute the shot the way he intended to. Right. So, yes, that's. That's a huge part of it. Again, if we just took a bucket of balls and filled it up with 50 golf balls and we just tossed it up in the air, some are going to land left, some are going to round right somewhere going to land long, so we're going to land short. Cool. Let's just make sure that none of the balls or a very small percentage of the balls that we toss up in the air even have a chance of going out of bounds. Right. Let's make sure that all those balls we toss, the majority of them are on the green and not short in the water. So that's where shifting your target gets. The good shots are fine. They're easy pars. The bad shots are fine. They're up and down for par or easy to put. And your amazing shots are fine. Right. You just. You're hedging your bets, trying to make the best decision possible. It's really cool when you look at it that way. [01:06:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it goes very much against the hit it as close to the hole as you possibly can philosophy that I've played with for 30 years. And it definitely probably goes against the hit it as far as you can off the T philosophy, but it does make a little sense. Not gonna lie. [01:06:19] Speaker B: Well. And if you look at the shot link data of a tour event, right? And let's say it's. It's like one of these holes with water all down the left side, and it's a dog leg Left, like some of the I think seen at the RM Palmer tournament. Right. It's like that. And then there's like this tree off in the distance and you'll see the huge cluster of drives for the day. You can reverse engineer what their target actually was based off of that. Where's the center of all those balls? Right. And it's typically not the hero line, that's for sure. Or when that flag is tucked left behind a bunker, you'll see a whole crap ton of balls towards the center of the green because that's where they're trying to hit it well and you. [01:06:57] Speaker A: Know the stat and you, you'll probably know it off top of your head, but you can find it really easily. The average pro from 100ft or from 100 yards hits it to what, like 18ft or something like that. Like we think that pros hit it to six feet every time. But that's not necessarily just because the pros aren't. Because I'll be honest, like if I'm at Soly's hitting 100 yard shot, I'm going to hit it inside 15ft of my target probably more often than not. I'm certainly not as good as a pro. Part of the reason that they hit it 18ft away from the flag is because there might have been some really dangerous crap two feet left of the flag and they were aimed 20ft right of it. Right. So they're not always aiming where we think they're aiming. They're aiming it to a certain point and then. Yeah, once in a while I've seen that too where pros hit a great shot and it was an accident, you know, but I've just never really see to me if it's a back lift pin and there's water over there, all that means is I'm going to start my draw further right but I'm still going to draw it right because I still wanted to have a shot to get close. And that's just not the. [01:08:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Here's another way to look at it, right? Like the overwhelming majority of golfers, unless they need just actually to practice putting, they are statistically going to be able to make two putts from any point on a green than they are shipping from short sighted and saving par. Like the math is just going to work out better. This is an experiment I have students do all the time. I say play your normal 18 holes of golf, but when you get to every green, put an additional ball just in the middle of the green and then putt from there. Assuming you've hit green and regulation and see what you score, and they're like, oh, my Gosh, I just shot 600. Right? Because, you know, and then they played their own ball, chasing targets, chasing flags, trying to hit it to two feet every single time they shot 85. Right. So it's. It kind of shows the whole. It's a boring game in many respects when you. When you play that way. But again, what is the path to stress free? Because what we want is. We want a chance at birdie. That's it. That's all we want is a chance. Okay. [01:08:58] Speaker A: How many times around, Tony, do you think a pro is aiming in 18 holes? How many are. How many times are they taking dead aim for the flag? [01:09:07] Speaker B: Do you think they'd probably have to have 120 yards or less, and it would have to be a pretty conservative pin, you know, once they get a wedge in their hands, those. Those men and women are absolutely phenomenal. Right? But anything outside of that, unless they're just feeling it that day, you know, and they're just super confident. But it's really fun to listen to the conversation with the caddies, too, because you can hear them and they're like, oh, wins off the right. Yeah, we're gonna need to hedge a little bit there. And, like, you see it in the Ryder cup, too. Some of those par threes, where did a lot of those balls end up? Like, you'd see four guys hit in a row, and they all end up pretty darn close to each other, Right. And it might be 20ft from the flag, something like that. [01:09:49] Speaker C: So I want to know, when you hear Tony talk like that, just hit it in the middle of the green. Like, do you feel. Do you feel gross or you feel like the hair standing on the back of your neck just. Just hit from the bell or. [01:10:02] Speaker A: No, you see me riding, I just ride. A note to edit that part out of the. Get rid of it. I'm just like, that's blasphemy. We're not putting that in there. [01:10:14] Speaker C: Tony used the word boring. He's like, I know it's boring, but, you know, you're just trying to. You're just trying to make birdies. And I just. I'm just curious, how does that make you feel playing boring? [01:10:26] Speaker B: A little. [01:10:26] Speaker A: Little queasy. I mean, it doesn't it. Because, well, what it makes me think is that it kind of sucks because on those days that I'm just striping it, I'm going to shoot 34 on nine holes where if I was striping it and playing good. I was going to shoot 31. But on the other side of that, though, when I'm aiming for those flags and missing, I'm shooting 42, right? Like, to me, if I. I'm thinking, like, number 11 and Augusta just. I played it today, right? And that pin is. You know, even if it's dead center, the green, the correct target is probably the very right edge of that green. That's. That's probably where you need to be aiming that from 175 yards out. But see, then if I hit that shot perfectly, I'm going to miss the green, and I'm gonna be pissed off that I hit a perfect shot and missed the green. I'm just being on, you know, I'm gonna be mad that, no, I'm gonna have a super easy chip and I'm gonna get up and down probably. I'm definitely not gonna hit in the water. But I'm just. That's. That's incredibly boring to me. I mean, I can't deny that I'd probably play better. You know, Mike, you got me really thinking about. But you got me in my head now. I'm thinking, what. Which would I rather do? Play aggressive and shoot 85 or play smart and shoot 75? And I'm not sure that I wouldn't rather play aggressive and shoot 85. Now there's just something wrong with me. Like, I need to really get that worked out, I think. [01:11:43] Speaker B: But so that's. Again, that goes back to the whole point of what is your goal of the game? Is your goal to have fun hero shots, or is the goal to score lower? And that's okay to say. [01:11:54] Speaker A: I want it all. I don't see why there has to be a distinction between the two. Yeah. Yeah. [01:12:01] Speaker B: Well. And again, it's. It's. It's not necessarily. That's boring, but, I mean, that's. That's how I was able to shoot a one over with only four clubs. The ball stayed in play off of every single tee shot. And then what? I. I played whatever number I could make sure I got on the green, whether it was a full sand wedge, a half sand wedge, a full eight iron, or a half. Like, it's just like the flag was irrelevant unless I was inside of 100 yards with a wedge. It was just. Just get on the green, two putt, get out there. [01:12:29] Speaker C: I'm gonna make a bold statement and say, I didn't know you as a kid, but I'm guessing you weren't a kid that liked to eat your vegetables. And you're not a kid that liked to take medicine when you felt bad. It's like the whole like Tony saying, like, just take your medicine. Just lay up. Just get it up there close. Like you're, you're like, you know what? I'm not gonna take the medicine. And there's a chance I may get sick, but I don't want to taste. I don't want that in my body. I don't want to taste that nastiness. I don't want those vegetables. I know it's good for me, but I'd rather have the dessert because I know that dessert's gonna taste good. And I may, I may put on a few extra pounds, but damn it, this is gonna taste good. I know it's gonna taste good. [01:13:15] Speaker A: I got news for you, Mike. [01:13:17] Speaker C: Are we getting too far? [01:13:19] Speaker A: I got news for you, Mike. I'm a grown ass man about to turn 40 and I still don't eat my vegetables. Well, I usually double cheese. Complain that I wait. Okay, anyway, that's enough Garrett examination for today. Next time we're going to talk about Mike. And. [01:13:39] Speaker C: We can't record on Fridays. I call it unfiltered Friday. I am tired from waking up at 4:45 in the morning. I was up late watching baseball. My filters are gone. And so this is what you get if for the. [01:13:55] Speaker A: For the listeners or viewers, wherever you're enjoying us from, check out the YouTube channel. It is YouTube at best golf podcast ever. And the. If you. I'm not sure which will come out first. I'm going to work on getting the Augusta video edited. And do y' all want to do a reaction video for the Augusta or do you want me to just do that one solo? I don't know if we got time to do a reaction or not, but I want to get that one out. And then I think coming soon, just for the fun or boredom of it, I'm going to throw together a Play Smart Augusta just to see where it, how it plays out. And I'm going to literally, maybe, Tony, I might need you to come with me on that one because I'm not sure that I know what that even means, but I'm going to. I think that's what I want to do. I think for the next video, I want you to go out there with me and I'm going to aim. This is what I'm going to do. I'm going to give you the mouse and you get to decide where my aim point is. And then I will have no control over it, and I will hit every shot exactly the way you tell me to hit it. And we'll just compare the three rounds. I got a 76 and a 77. Now, I want to see how that turns out. But I have a feeling I'm not going to like. I have to. I have two feelings. I have a feeling I'm not going to like what I find out. And I also have a tiny little film that it's not going to change a damn thing about the way I play golf. But we'll give it a shot and see how it goes. [01:15:08] Speaker B: That sounds fun. [01:15:10] Speaker C: Hear all about it. [01:15:13] Speaker B: I shot 63 at Augusta National from the tips. What do you know? Well, but it sucked. It was so boring. I'd never do that again in my life. [01:15:21] Speaker A: That might be the weirdest thing. If I actually. If that happens, I will delete the video before I publish it. I don't think I'd even acknowledge it. I don't think I can imagine if. [01:15:29] Speaker C: Tony was your caddy. Can you imagine? I'd want to hear the conversations. [01:15:36] Speaker A: I think if Tony's my caddy, I'd be on tour, no joke. I think I actually got a brain. [01:15:42] Speaker B: I'm gonna take his two iron. I'm gonna break it. As soon as he gets to that number where he's got to carry the water, I'm like, no, I'm just gonna chunk it. [01:15:51] Speaker A: All right, boys. I get. Get enjoyed it, guys. See y. A little bit is better than nada. [01:16:16] Speaker B: Sometime you want the whole itchy ladder. A little bit is better than nada. [01:16:24] Speaker A: A little bit or nothing at all.